For all of our technological and social advancements, we humans haven't changed much in how we make decisions—and that includes B2B buyers and buying groups.

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"We think they're making these very well-thought-out, well-considered decisions, that they're making decisions that are the best for their company," says Nancy Harhut on Episode 563 of Marketing Smarts.

"This is true, but there is another component there, too.... They're also responding to elements that maybe they're not even aware of."

Nancy, behavioral specialist and CCO at HBT Marketing, and author of the recently published Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, explains that much of decision-making is instinctive rather than rational.

"If somebody were to say to us, 'Why did you do that,' we'll tell them a story, if you will; we'll give them a reason that makes perfect sense and that is probably part of the equation of why we did something, but certainly not all of it," she says. "A lot of it is just instinctive, and then we later justify afterward why we did what we did if somebody were to ask."

It's helpful, therefore, for marketing messages to "lead with an emotional benefit" and then get into the product details later. Because the emotion is more "brain-friendly."

"We're all doing the marketing, we're all getting the marketing out there," says Nancy. "It doesn't cost any extra to make it brain-friendly."

Nancy will be presenting at a session during the upcoming B2B Forum, Oct. 4-6, in Boston. You can buy Nancy's book Using Behavioral Science in Marketing here or here.

Listen to the entire show from the link above, or download the mp3 and listen at your convenience. Of course, you can also subscribe to the Marketing Smarts podcast in iTunes or via RSS and never miss an episode.

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Full Transcript: Discovering the Brain Science that Drives B2B Buyer Behavior

George B. Thomas: I'm super duper excited because we're getting nerdy today with brain science. Actually, we're talking about discovering brain science that drives B2B buyer behavior. I'm also excited because I get to sit with Nancy Harhut today and we get to talk about what keeps her up at night around marketers, especially B2B marketers, and around brain science. We get to dive into a really great conversation that covers the hurdles, what success looks like, some hard decisions.

There's a quote in here, listen for it: "The antacid for a day of hard decisions." You're going to love that part of the podcast. We're going to talk about how our brains are trying to rationalize and what that means. There's a whole bunch of stuff. The best thing is that Nancy Harhut is also going to be at the B2B Forum. Hopefully, you'll be there too.

Getting people to take action is what Nancy is all about. Her specialty is blending best of breed creative with decision science to prompt response. A frequent conference speaker, Nancy has shared her passion with audiences all over the world. Along the way, she has been named an Online Marketing Institute Top 40 Digital Strategist, Top 50 B2B Marketing Influencer, and the Energizer Bunny of B2B Copywriting. As the CCO of HBT Marketing, Nancy and her team have won 200+ awards for digital direct marketing effectiveness. And guess what? She's a great human. It's time, let's get into the good stuff.

Buckle up, get ready. Hopefully you had a V8 or some type of beverage that has your brain firing on all synapses. Hopefully you have that notepad and you're ready to jot down what is going to be able to drive better, more interesting B2B buyer behavior. We're going to be talking about brain science, but I'm super excited because I like to nerd out on this and I get to hang out with Nancy Harhut for about 25 to 35 minutes. You get to hang out with us, you get to listen to the conversation.

Nancy, how are you doing today?

Nancy Harhut: I am doing really well, George. Thank you so much for asking. More importantly, thank you so much for inviting me to the podcast.

George: Absolutely. As soon as it came across my desk, I was like yes, emphatically, yes, let's make this happen. One of the things that I like to do is I like to ask some serious questions, but I also like to ask some fun questions because I find it gets us to some really interesting places.

The first question I'm going to ask you is, what keeps you up at night? I fully understand that it could be a dream, it could be a nightmare. I'm actually going to narrow in when I say what keeps you up at night. When you think of B2B marketers and brain science, or what they're trying to drive buyers to do, what keeps you up at night?

Nancy: My first answer was going to be insomnia keeps me up at night, but you have a more specific ask here. Honestly, things are changing so quickly. We're in marketing. Marketing always has a fast pace, no question about it. Historically, it has been fast-paced, but these days I think that the tempo is even faster. I think about the uses of AI, which are stampeding on the scene. I think about how that's going to impact marketing, marketers, marketing communications, our audiences. When I start to really ruminate on that, that keeps me up at night.

George: It might be a little bit of a nightmare. Sometimes people will answer that question and they're like it's a dream, but sometimes it's a nightmare.

Let's level-set. I like to get the foundational pieces of what we're talking about. When you think of folks who are tuning in, they're thinking brain science sounds interesting, driving B2B buyer behavior is something they get paid to do, they don't know if they're doing a great job at it or not. Where do we start the conversation as far as can you give us some type of overview of key principles of behavioral science or brain science? Again, specific or contextual to this idea that we're talking to B2B marketers and we're trying to get this B2B buyer behavior. What are the key principles or overview items, the chess pieces if you will, that we should be paying attention to?

Nancy: Sure. That's a great question. It's funny, some people hear brain science or behavioral science and they're intrigued. Other people think that's going to be boring, my eyes are going to roll into the back of my head, it sounds too technical and complicated. But really, basically what we're talking about is the study of how people make decisions.

Behavioral scientists have found that even though we think that we make well-thought-out, well-considered decisions, and even though we think by extension that our customers and prospects make well-thought-out, well-considered decisions, very often that's not the case. Very often, there are other factors at play that influence people's decisions and they're not even aware of it. As I say that, you might think I kind of get that. I'm thinking about standing at the checkout line at the grocery store and I buy that candy bar, that's an impulse buy.

But it also applies to B2B buyers. Even though we think they're making these very well-thought-out, well-considered decisions, that they're making decisions that are the best for their company, this is true, but there is another component there, too. There's also thinking about themselves and how decisions are going to affect them. They're also responding to elements that maybe they're not even aware of. The way you phrase something. The way you frame something. The choice of one word over another. There are certain things that can influence people, get them to make a decision, to click, to call, to try or buy. They're not even aware of it.

They'll tell you, "I'm doing this for this reason," and they'll cite this rational reason and it will sound good, and they may even believe it, but there's maybe something that they're not in touch with that actually did nudge them in one direction or another, that in a marketer's hands can be incredibly powerful. That's where this idea of brain science and increasing B2B marketing response come together.

George: It's interesting because when I hear you talk about this, it's almost like we have instincts as humans that we flow into our follow. We make up stuff in our brain of why we did it, but it's just an instinctual thing. Actually, in your book, I think you talk about instinctive responses as a driving force in customer action and loyalty. Could you take some time to elaborate on what these instinctive responses are and how marketers can leverage them in the most positive human way possible?

Nancy: Absolutely. These responses are instinctive. What behavioral scientists have found is humans have developed certain automatic instinctive reflexive behaviors, basically as a way to conserve mental energy. If we try to weigh every piece of information before we make a decision, we'd never get around to making any.

Way back when our ancient ancestors were running around, they had to make decisions quickly. If you run into a saber-toothed tiger, and you stop to think the fur looks soft, but the teeth look sharp, then you're gone. There was no time to think. The people who saw the tiger turned around and ran, they're the ones who survived, they're the ones who passed their genes on, and those are the genes that today we've inherited.

While they're not protecting us from predators necessarily, they are helping us just navigate life and get through the day. It's a way to conserve mental energy. So, we have these hard-wired responses, and what happens is we basically cruise along on autopilot. We encounter a certain situation and we just default to these automatic behaviors.

If somebody were to say to us, "Why did you do that," we'll tell them a story, if you will, we'll give them a reason that makes perfect sense and that is probably part of the equation of why we did something, but certainly not all of it. A lot of it is just instinctive and then we later justify afterward why we did what we did if somebody were to ask.

George: It's so interesting. We keep bumping up into some of these same words. Of course, my brain is built in a way that I try to hear these words and I can kind of tag onto them. You mentioned these things that are default. Is that good or bad? How do we move past the default or make our actions based on what we're actually thinking? I really go into our brains are trying to rationalize, make things up almost to make things make sense in a fashion.

What's interesting is today we're on a podcast talking about B2B marketers, which obviously they're dealing with B2B buyers, and these B2B buyers are humans, sometimes a little robotic, but they're humans, and they're trying to make decisions. Usually, it's rational decisions based on data and logic. At least, that's what we're told we're supposed do, make data-driven decisions and be logical in the moves that you make in business.

My question on that is how can behavioral science shed light on the emotional aspects of their decision-making process that actually go hand in hand with that data and logic but many times we don't connect it together?

Nancy: Sure. It's interesting. We do, particularly in the B2B environment world, it's all about the speeds and the feed and the data points, and people are making these very well-thought-out, well-considered decisions. The truth of the matter is they're making decisions, everyone makes decisions, for emotional reasons. Then we later justify those decisions to ourselves and to other people with rational reasons. What it says to B2B marketers is we need both components, we need rational reasons in our marketing and we need emotional reasons in our marketing.

We did some work for a company that created a business intelligence software product. What it did is it allowed people to get a full 360-degree view of the data that they had. Very often, you have data that is in different databases, it's locked away in these silos. If you're a high-level executive and you're asked to make decisions, and you know that you don't have access to all of the information, you realize that there is a chance you're going to make the wrong call. At a high level, when you're making these decisions, they don't just affect you. They affect other employees in the company. They perhaps affect the company's standing visa vie regulations. It's pretty serious stuff. So, this particular company created a product where you get a 360-degree view of the data, and suddenly you're in a much better position to make decisions.

You would say their marketing should just lead with that, that's a great idea, you can see everything you need to see. What they ended up doing is they led with an emotional benefit and then they followed up with the statistics, the facts, the here's how it works and why it would be good. But they led with this very emotional appeal, they said it's like the delete button for that voice in your head, it's like the antacid for a diet of tough decisions.

They basically were saying we know what it's like, you're making these decisions, you know you don't have all of the information, and you're afraid one of them is going to be wrong. It probably keeps you up at night, it probably has you asking yourself over and over again, "Did I do the right thing?" It probably gives you that awful upset stomach because you don't know if you made the right decision.

They led with that and then they explained what their product was. They got a 13% increase in purchase intent with that campaign. It just kind of underscores this point that even in a B2B environment people are making decisions based on emotional as well as rational reasons.

Any B2B marketer that shuts off that emotion thing and says not my people, they're highly intelligent, they're very focused on business, anyone who says, "I don't need to do that," is missing the boat. Even if you're audience is highly intelligent, even they're a senior executive who has the best interest of the company in mind, there are still emotions at play that influence their decisions.

George: Don't miss the boat. By the way, that might be the first rewind point of this episode where I would say rewind, listen to that again, and have that notepad ready. I'll be honest with you. When I heard you say the antacid for a day of hard decisions, I was like can somebody just preach? Preach it because we need more of that in our life, wherever that antacid is, to get through those hard decisions.

Speaking of hard decisions, as the chief creative officer at HBT Marketing, how do you go about incorporating behavioral science into the creative process to craft more persuasive, in a good way, B2B marketing messages?

Nancy: I'll hit that last point first, actually. You want to do it in a good way. I'm going to talk about ways to trigger these automatic instinctive, hard-wired behaviors.

As marketers, we always have to remember that what we're looking for is the win-win. Obviously, we want to drive business, but we want to drive the right business. We want customers who are going to be happy with our products, who are going to find our products beneficial. You don't want to win the battle but lose the war, like drive in people, get that short term sale, but in the end they're not a good fit. That's not good for them and it's not good for you. We always want to be smart, responsible about the way that we use these techniques.

How do we use them? At HBT Marketing, one of the first things we do is we talk to our clients and we find out what is your marketing challenge, who are you trying to convince, what are you trying to convince them of, what's the product or service that you're selling, why would it make sense for somebody to say yes, but more importantly, why do they often say no.

A lot of times when marketers sit down to put together the marketing messages, it's all about the reasons you should say yes. That's good, that makes sense, of course, but you also want to think about the reasons somebody may say no because that's what you have to overcome. We try to identify those key buying barriers. Then we look to see what behavioral science principles are out there that might be able to address them.

Maybe you're a company who is expanding to a new geography, so one of the buying barriers could be people don't know who you are, you're not known in this area. Maybe you're a B2B company and you're extending your product line, and you're known for one kind of product, but you're not necessarily known for this new thing that you're introducing. If that's the case, what can we do?

Maybe if you're moving into a new geography, maybe we want to use some social proof. We want to talk about all of the customers that you have, because even if you're not known in this particular area, the fact that you have all of these other customers makes me feel a little better. Maybe there's a testimonial, and I read the testimonial, and it's from someone who is like me. Even if they don't live where I live, they have the same job responsibilities that I do, the same job title, and they like the product and service, they think it's good, so I think maybe I will.

Maybe it's a company who is known for one product, but they're extending their product line into something new. The buying barrier there would be I know the company, but I don't necessarily know if I should trust them with this new thing. Maybe there we pull in the authority principle, people are more likely to believe what authorities say. If you can get somebody who is prominent in the industry to endorse you, if you can get the American Medical Association to give you their imprint.

We look at not only why somebody should say yes, but we look at why somebody might not say yes. Then we look at our behavioral science principles and we see which tactics we can test that will give us the best response.

In my book Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, I have 17 chapters and about 25 go-to behavioral science principles that I have found over the years I return to time and time again because they really work for my customers. I'd say that's a good place to start, with those 25. There are hundreds, honestly, but those 25 are really good.

George: I love that. It's like the Pareto Principle. Nancy is going to give you the 20% or some rough math around there, the 25 that you need to pay attention to. By the way, if you haven't gotten the book, if you haven't dove into those principles, I would suggest that you do that.

Nancy, I want to circle back around on something. One thing I do know about most humans—not all, but most—is they'll hear something, and they'll run with it. A question or two ago, I asked about the emotional side of the buying process, and we were like, lean into emotion. I can just feel B2B marketers out there going, "They said lead with emotion. Who needs data?" So, I'm going to ask this question, but maybe in an opposite way.

When we think about today's digital age, how can B2B marketers effectively use data-driven insights along with behavioral science principles to tailor their marketing efforts?

Nancy: It's like a match made in heaven. It's going to make you a more effective marketer. You can rely on the data-driven insights to tell you who you should target, where you can find them, when you can find them, what you should serve up to particular subsegments. You have your target, but those data-driven insights can tell you this is the best offer for this segment, this is the best offer for that segment. You rely on the data for that.

Then you rely on the behavioral science to help you serve up the message in a brain-friendly way, to help you serve up a message so that it will be more likely to be noticed, understood, acted upon, and remembered. Behavioral science or brain science will help you do those things.

The data gets you really far, those data-driven insights are incredibly helpful, but it's almost like that last mile, if you will, is where the behavioral science comes in because it will make your message that much more effective. You'll have the right message to the right person at the right time. Behavioral science helps you deliver it in the right way.

George: I love that addition, in the right way. When I heard you say brain-friendly, I literally had to jot down in my notes and ask the question to the Marketing Smarts listeners. Are you creating messages or messaging in a brain-friendly way? You have to stop and ask yourself that. I think there is a power place in our strategy to let's make sure we ask ourselves this question.

Speaking of B2B, I wish in most B2B cases you could actually have a marketing and sales journey, a customer journey, a prospect journey, that you always knew that you were just talking to one human being and that's all that you had to deal with. However, that is not the way that it goes in our world. B2B purchases often involve multiple decision-makers. How can marketers utilize behavioral science to navigate the complex dynamics of group decision-making as we move forward?

Nancy: It's funny because a lot of times they'll counsel copywriters in particular to write as if you're just talking to one person, write as if the person is right across the desk from you, have that conversation. That's great advice because what it really means is have a tone and a personality to your voice, don't be robotic, so you absolutely want to do that. But the reality is it's not just one person, it's going to be a decision-making committee or it's going to be your single decision-maker and your influencer. That's what we have to deal with, and we have that longer sales cycle than you find on the B2C side, so we really need to take this into account.

There are at least three behavioral science principles that I would turn to that would help us as marketers to address the multiple decision-makers or decision-by-committee situations that we're in.

One of them is the idea of the authority principle. We have a tendency to listen to authorities, we believe what they tell us, we do what they tell us. As you're dealing with your multiple decision-makers, you want to zero in on the biggest one, the most important one. If you can get their vote, people have a tendency to fall in line. If you get the most important person, there's less likelihood that other people are going to try to buck the system, because the big woman or the big man says this is what they want. That's one way to go. Not always easy, but certainly one way to go.

Another way to go is the idea of social proof. Just telling people that more and more people are on board. If you're dealing with half a dozen decision-makers, if you can get four of them, the other two are likely going to just follow suit because we have a tendency to do what other people do, particularly other people like us. In this case, it would be people who are on this buying committee in this particular company, they're like us. We feel that if other people are doing something, they either know something that we don't know, or at the very least they have made a decision and we feel safe following that decision. We're not going to be missing out on something by not following them. We're also not going to be risking a mistake because we're following them.

The third thing that I would point to is this idea of cognitive fluency, which is a mouthful of a phrase which basically means people prefer things that are easier to think about and easier to understand. Cognitive fluency is all about people prefer things that are easier to think about and easier to understand. Not only do they prefer them, but they have a tendency to believe them, to believe they're more truthful and accurate, and they feel more confident in their ability to make a decision about them. That's of course the Holy Grail for us in marketing. What this means is we want to make sure that the information that we're putting out there is easy for everybody in our target market, the influencers and the ultimate decision-maker, to understand.

When you have this group of decision-makers, some of them are going to have more technical ability, others are going to be listening in for financial information, others are going to be thinking about the overall impact on productivity. You want to figure out what's the best way for me to serve up the information so that I can get each individual person's vote. I don't want to be talking to Person A about stuff that goes right over their head because they're only interested in a particular bit of information. I don't want to be talking to Person B about something that Person A wants, because Person B isn't interested in that and they don't have the frame of reference to really understand it and work with it. I think it's important that we put information out there as we're trying to make our sale, as we're trying to move people along, that people find easy to understand because that is going to give them the confidence that they're making the right decision.

Those are three ways to deal with that reality that we all have of having multiple decision-makers.

George: Marketing Smarts listeners, I hope you were taking notes on that one. I'll tell you, number three, my brain was screaming this is the importance of simplifying the complex. This is just making it so it's so easy for their brain and them just to move in the direction, hopefully the right direction, for what they need.

Speaking of right direction, usually I ask if there are any myths and if there are any hurdles. These are typically two different questions. However, today I'm going to ask them as a singular question. I'm sure there are people out there that are like this is awesome, we should be doing behavioral science ninja stuff over here at our organization. But I'm sure that equals that you've seen some organizations jack it up real good.

Are there any common misconceptions, myths, challenges, hurdles or potholes that marketers face when trying to implement behavioral science strategies in their B2B marketing? What would you say to them or warn them of?

Nancy: One of them we touched on briefly, and that is the idea that I have a really B2B-focused audience, a really intelligent audience, they're making decisions based on facts and figures and the good of the company. We need to get B2B marketers to understand that's not the entire equation. That's one myth, that emotion has no role here. It really does.

Another is sometimes you get an advocate within the company that manages to get a test in there, we're going to try some brain science, we're going to test something, and it doesn't return a tenfold increase in ROI and it's like it's a failure. That one test gets behavioral science just written off for the next 10 years, "We tried it once and it didn't work." The truth of the matter is it's an inexact science. You really need to test to find out what's going to work best for your market, for your message, for your product. A single test that doesn't necessarily work doesn't mean using behavioral science in your marketing is never going to work.

That's one of the things that you run up against. You want to try a few things. You want to think about, as we were saying, why isn't someone going to want to do what we want them to do, what are a few potential ways we can overcome that, and then let's get them out in the market, let's test them, let's see where we're getting some traction.

Then I think the other thing is people hear brain science or behavioral science and they think it sounds complicated, it sounds expensive perhaps, it sounds like I need to go out and get a degree that I don't have, I don't have the time to get it, I don't currently have it. That's not entirely true. You can source people who have experience doing this. The truth of the matter is you're going to send the message out there anyway. We're all doing the marketing, we're all getting the marketing out there. It doesn't cost any extra to make it brain-friendly. It's easy enough to do.

It can be the matter of framing something one way, phrasing something a different way. It's just getting a little understanding about behavioral science or tapping into someone who has that understanding and beginning to feed it in. Like I said, I have 17 chapters and 25 different tactics that you can use in the book. There are a lot of bulleted try this, test this, here's how to use this. You can start small and you can make it happen. This idea that it's too much, it's too complicated, it's too expensive, I don't think we can do it, that's another myth. You really can. You can start to use it, and you'll start to see some instant results, which is great.

George: Marketing Smarts listeners, I love that section. I also am about to do something that I've never done on the podcast before. I'm going to ask a very specific question. I've alluded to several times in this episode, "a good way," a human way. Nancy, you even said in the last answer to the last question that you don't necessarily have to go to college, you can start to test it, you can source other humans, you can lean into it. But we have to remember behavioral science, we're literally talking about brains, we're talking about humans. We're hoping that the people listening to this, we're talking to them about doing these things in a good way, the way that they should be used.

I just want to ask the question are there any ethical considerations and how do those come into play when we are going down this road of using behavioral science to influence B2B buyer behavior? What boundaries should marketers be mindful of as they journey down this road?

Nancy: Absolutely great question. We want to be honest. We want to be responsible. We want to be ethical. Just because we can potentially cause action and change behavior, doesn't necessarily mean that we should.

For example, if I say we have this 50% off sale, if you get in now, you can save 50%, but it's only good this week. If that's true, my prospect is going to benefit from that. But if two weeks later I'm running the same sale, I've essentially misinformed that prospect. That's just not honest, it's not ethical, it's not responsible, it's not what we want to do. We want to be respectful of our customers and our prospects. We want to help them come to a decision that they're going to find beneficial.

When you think about it, we have a target market out there that we've defined, but the truth of the matter is some people are going to see our message and they're going to say, "This is what I have been looking for," and they're going to buy. Then you're going to get some people who, even though technically they're part of our market, they're going to say, "No way, no how. I am a customer of such-and-such corporation, and I will only buy from them." We're probably not going to convert them. Then there's that middle ground of people who could probably benefit from our product or service, but we have to reach them. We want to reach them in an honest way, in an ethical way, we want to give them information that they will find helpful and useful.

We want to give them that nudge because there's a lot going on in people's lives and they don't always have the attention that we would like to give them. We spend far more time and effort on our marketing communications than any of our target does consuming them. We pore over them to make sure everything is perfect. They glance at them, if we're lucky. We want to make it as easy as possible for people who really can benefit from what it is we have to say to encounter our messages.

If we do that honestly, ethically, and responsibly, if we think about who is on the other end and think about that person as a friend or a family member, would we want to mislead a friend or family member? No. That becomes the litmus test, if you will, for this. If I wouldn't say this to my friend or my family member, why am I going to put it in my marketing? If it's honest, if it's going to be helpful, then let's do it. Let's do it with the knowledge as marketers that this will actually help both of us, potential customer and company.

George: I love that answer so much. Nancy, this has been an absolute blast. What a great interview. Time flew. I can't even believe that we've been sitting here for 30 minutes talking about brain science. I want to go back to one of those fun questions that I like to ask during these interviews.

Just know that the words that are about to come out of my mouth could be around brain science, they could be around driving B2B buyer behavior, it could be about life itself. What are some final words of wisdom that you would want to leave the Marketing Smarts listeners with around any of those topics?

Nancy: I think it would be that we have to remember that people, our customers and prospects in the B2B world, are making decisions that are influenceable or nudgeable or triggerable, that they're not these automatons that are only making decisions based on facts and figures and data. At the other end of our communications are people, and people have emotions, and people rely on decision-making shortcuts. As marketers, it's smart for us to get on board. More and more marketers are. There are senior level, even chief behavioral officer level positions at companies like Microsoft and Google and Amazon.

It's out there, companies are understanding it, companies are benefiting from it, and we should just begin to embrace it because it's going to make things better not only for ourselves, but for our customers. If you're not on the brain science bandwagon yet, jump on. My book is a good place to start, it will give you a good introduction. It's going to make you a better marketer and it's going to make you more valuable to your customers and prospects.

George: Marketing Smarts listeners, did you take lots of notes? I have to ask, what is your one thing, your number one execution opportunity after this podcast episode? Make sure you reach out and let us know in my inbox or on Twitter using the hashtag #MPB2B.

I also have to ask are you a free member of the MarketingProfs community yet? If not, head over to Mprofs.com/mptoday. You won't regret the additional B2B marketing education that you'll be adding to your life.

We'd like it if you could leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app, but we'd love it if you would share this episode with a coworker or friend. Until we meet in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast where we talk with AJ Wilcox about LinkedIn ads, the myths, the hurdles, and the strategies B2B marketers need to know, I hope you do just a couple of things. One, reach out and let us know what conversation you'd like to listen in on next. Two, focus on getting 1% better at your craft each and every day. Finally, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble B2B marketing human. We'll see you in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast.

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Published on September 14, 2023