Marketers are often torn between campaigns that get immediate results—which are also immediately visible to executives—and tactics that enable them to plan ahead for company longevity. And though an economic downturn is never welcome, it can give marketers the excuse they need to focus on those long-term goals.

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"I think the biggest shortcoming that folks run into is that they oftentimes lose that long-term vision, or they invest in something for the long term, don't see immediate results, and then pivot away from it and just go back to what they know," says Lindsay Boyajian Hagan of SEO platform Conductor.

She emphasizes using this time to revisit organic content, in particular, and optimize it: "A great way that you can maximize your budget is, you probably already have a lot of great content out there that you've created...sitting right at the top of page two. We know no one goes to the second page of Google. You have an opportunity to look at all the content you have on your site and find where the low hanging fruit is. What content can I go back and optimize that might be right there, right in the top 10?"

That's not to say your strategy should turn entirely inward. As always, marketers have to keep their ear to the ground. "Your customers are going to be changing their buying behavior," she says. "They're not going to be doing and operating business as usual. As marketers, it's really important going into the year having eyes wide open, knowing that we're going to have to adapt to what our customers are going to be doing."

Ultimately, says Lindsay, tightening your budget is "all about focus....what's working, what's not working, trimming the fat, focusing on those activities and those core channels that are delivering."

Listen to the entire show from the link above, or download the mp3 and listen at your convenience. Of course, you can also subscribe to the Marketing Smarts podcast in iTunes or via RSS and never miss an episode.

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Full Transcript: Maximizing Your B2B Marketing Budget

George B. Thomas: Are you feeling budget restraint? Maybe economic downturn? Maybe what they call recession? I hate that R word. More importantly, today we're going to be talking about maximizing your B2B marketing budget.

I don't know if you feel any of those things that I started out with. That's the thing, it's all over the place. Some people are saying they're dealing with it, some people are saying they're not. At a minimum, we all should be thinking about how we can maximize our B2B marketing budget. I'm thrilled to have this conversation today with an expert in the field, Lindsay Boyajian Hagan. Let me tell you, no matter what you're facing or not facing, there are some great tips in this podcast with Lindsay.

Lindsay is the VP of marketing at Conductor, managing all demand gen and go-to-market activities. With over 10 years of experience in the B2B SaaS space, Lindsay's strengths lie in scaling marketing teams and building cross channel campaign strategies. A determined entrepreneur, Lindsay began he career by launching her own company, WeareverYouGo. While working there, she participated in Cornell University's startup accelerator eLab class, where she built a team of five.

After stepping away from WeareverYouGo, Lindsay pursued a dual master's degree in industrial and labor regulations and management at Cornell University and ESCP Europe. She then joined Augment, a Salesforce-backed augmented reality SaaS platform, where she built the marketing team from the ground up and executed all online lead generation.

Lindsay was a Discovery Awards finalist for a emerging women marketers in tech in 2017, and has presented at notable conferences such as Digital Summit DC, Inside Intercom, The NYC Product Marketing Conference, and Conductor's C3 Marketing Conference. Buckle up, get your notepad ready, let's get into the good stuff.

With that out of the way, it's time to talk about maximizing your B2B marketing budget topic. We said let's get into the good stuff, and we're going to get into the good stuff. What's hard about getting into the good stuff today is I don't know where this conversation is going to go because we're going to use a word, it might be a dirty word in your book, it might be something that you're paying attention to or not, but the word recession, and economy, and where we are as just humans and individuals. More importantly, what the heck does that mean to B2B marketers, your budget, and all of that good stuff? The good thing that I am absolutely excited about is that I'm not alone, I'm here with Lindsay.

Lindsay, why don't you take a second to just explain to folks who you are and what you do?

Lindsay Boyajian Hagan: Awesome. Hey, everyone. I'm Lindsay Boyajian Hagan, the VP of marketing at Conductor. Conductor is an enterprise SEO platform, so we help companies, whether they're B2B or B2C, make sure that their content is getting found on Google, where their customers are.

George: Most of your customers are using Google, trust me. Maybe some Bing, maybe some DuckDuckGo, maybe some other random places depending on how nerdy they are. But that is not why we are here today.

On this topic about maximizing your B2B marketing budget, recession strategies and tips by you the professional, let's just start with what the heck around any of those words keeps you up at night?

Lindsay: Not to again use the dirty word of recession, but as economic uncertainty looms, more and more marketers are feeling the crunch, budgets are tightening. If they're not tightening, they're staying flat and we're being asked as marketers to do more with less. The thing that's really keeping me up is that few marketers when being asked to make really important decisions have good telemetry and they can't really answer what channels and campaigns are delivering, it's really difficult for them to know, delivering ROI.

When they are asked to make prioritization decisions, a lot of times they don't have the insight they need. What we see a lot of the time, too, is that they're making decisions based on gut feelings or anecdotal data. In fact, there's probably one or two channels that are really driving the bulk of their results. Oftentimes, we as an SEO company at Conductor see SEO and organic traffic is one of those higher converting channels. It's definitely a difficult time for marketers when they're trying to make decisions right now.

George: I love so much in that. I have a buddy that came racing to the front of my mind because he always has this saying, "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" Do we know where we're getting the most impact with the budget dollars that we're spending? I also leaned into Lindsay is talking about if you're aren't measuring it, you should be right now more than any time.

I still want to talk to those folks who might be out there like, "Recession? I don't know what you guys are talking about." Why do you think marketers need to pay attention to the fact that there is a possible recession or economic downturn?

Lindsay: I think there's two big reasons, one internally and one externally, that marketers need to pay attention.

First, from a market perspective, if there is a recession, or just changes in the economy like we saw during COVID, that means that your customers are going to be changing their buying behavior. They're not going to be doing and operating business as usual. As marketers, it's really important going into the year having eyes wide open, knowing that we're going to have to adapt to what our customers are going to be doing. They're going to be consuming differently, they're going to want different types of content, they're going to be responding to different types of messaging. As marketers, we have to pay attention to that and react to that. We can't be sitting around operating business as usual.

The second thing is internally at our companies, maybe we're not feeling the squeeze right now, but it's important to be aware of what's happening internally at your company. You may be asked to have a tighter budget, do more with less. As marketers, we need to be paying attention to what resourcing we're given and how we're allocating that resourcing to meet the needs of our customers who may be changing how they're operating.

George: There's two things that come to mind. The one that's really just kind of screaming out there is this idea of importance and priority. If you only have a certain amount of budget, and there's 27 things that you want to do as a B2B marketer, what are the seven things that budget should be used for that are going to move the needle the most?

The other piece of this, when you were first talking about the humans around you, the humans that you serve are going to change, the way they buy is going to change. I thought of an episode that we did a couple of months back about voice of customer. Are your customers having hardships as far as economy or not? If you have that voice of customer in place, then it won't be a guessing game, but it truly will help you align to where you need to go. You need to check out that episode with Nate Brown if you have not listened to it yet.

Lindsay, let's keep moving down the road here. When marketers (or humans in general) hear the word recession, is it time as a marketer to tighten the purse, because you feel like that's what everybody around you and your competition is going to be doing, or is it time to double-down? Where do you land, what is your opinion on let's double-down or let's go ahead and tighten that purse?

Lindsay: I actually throw in a third option here. My opinion is that focus when you hear the word recession. Maybe your budget is flat. Maybe your budget is growing. Every company is different. Our good friend Lou Cohen who is a professor here in New York and also at EY, his data and insights that he and I were just talking about is saying that not all marketing budgets are tightening. Some folks aren't tightening.

But when you do hear recession, it's all about focus. It's about focusing in on what's working, what's not working, trimming the fat, focusing in on those activities and those core channels that are delivering, which goes back to what we were just talking about around making sure you actually know what's working and what's not working, what's delivering ROI for your business, doubling-down on those.

Then there is still an opportunity that doesn't mean that you can't experiment and try new things, we're definitely not saying that, but it's about being really smart where you're putting those experimentation dollars. Maybe you're doing more cost-effective experiments and testing. Maybe instead of investing in a new media partnership, you're doing more A/B testing of your emails and your landing page copy. It's really about focusing and making sure that you're driving toward the activities, and really having clear goals that you're executing against and knowing how you're impacting the funnel.

George: I love that you brought up the word experimenting. I think this next question that we're going to dive into, some of the people may have done some of these things, some of the people may have done all of these things, some of them may have done some of these things in the past but aren't doing them now. I want to get into the good good stuff, which is the strategies. We have about four things that we'll probably talk about. We might come up with more.

The question here is what are some strategies that the B2B marketers should be leveraging to help maximize their budget in a recession? What are the strategies?

Lindsay: Number one, I would say, and this goes to what you spoke about earlier about your conversation with Nate Brown, is all about putting the customer first and listening to the customer voice. What we mean by that is it's great if you're doing all of this marketing, but if it's not what your customers want and it's not keeping up to their changing behaviors, desires, or needs in the current economy, you're going to be left by the wayside. So, first is really understanding and listening to the customer. You can kind of take that in a lot of different ways.

One good example of listening to the customer and adapting is one of our clients at Conductor. They're one of the large insurance brands. They used to use the term cyber risk to refer to a type of insurance offering. What we helped them uncover is that their target customers weren't actually using those words, so when they went to search, no one searching cyber risk insurance. What they found out was they were actually searching for cyber liability insurance.

By listening to their customer, understanding the language that the customer was using, and adapting their marketing to the voice of the customer, they saw about a 100% increase in traffic to that section of the site. For a business big or small, that has a huge impact. Especially since organic traffic is often one of the highest converting traffic to close on business channels. Listening to the customer voice, big or small, and applying that in different ways can just have a big impact.

George: I love that so much because it does prove that listening and using the right words when you're trying to communicate as a marketer (as a human in general) are very important. The story you were telling, obviously we know you're from Conductor, it's a search company, there's probably a number two around that, search and data and being able to use that. Number two, what's the second strategy that the listeners should be implementing?

Lindsay: The second is all about identifying new opportunities, and you can do that using search data. There's a great way that you can understand what the customer is saying and understand how they're searching, the frequency of their searching, and actually create content to help them and meet the needs of the customer. There's a lot of great insight in your search data and how your customers are searching, whether it's the example we just used of changing a word, but it's also about understanding how customers are searching, what problems they have, and then creating great content to address those questions.

We saw this a lot during COVID. In the beginning of COVID, folks were searching for things that they had never searched before. Customers had all sorts of new problems, whether it be being at home, working from home. What search data was able to help our customers understand is what were those new problems that customers have and how are we uniquely positioned to solve them. The customers winning in the beginning of COVID were the customers that were using search data to really quickly spin out great content that was helping their customers. Those folks saw great returns, especially in those early months of COVID as their competitors were playing catch up.

George: I'm so happy that you brought up content. I personally believe that content is the fuel, and the correct content can be super powerful. Marketing Smarts listeners, you should be very happy, too, because in the works for a future episode we actually have Joe Pulizzi, and we're going to talk to him about his book Content Inc and epic content and some things that we should be doing in 2023 around content and our B2B marketing efforts.

Back to where we're at today, strategy number three. You've mentioned this word a couple of times, channels. SEO can be a channel. Email can be a channel. Go ahead and talk to us about strategy number three that marketers might want to pay attention to.

Lindsay: In a time of recession, there's an opportunity to find synergies between your different channels. For instance, oftentimes, your organic SEO team and your PPC team sit totally siloed. That's really normal, we see that all the time in our customer base at Conductor. When you're looking for efficiencies in your marketing, that's a really natural place to find efficiencies.

You can say, "PPC, you don't have to bid on this really expensive keyword because we're ranking for that organically." There's a really nice opportunity to have a wholistic paid and organic keyword strategy that can really help save money, especially if your keywords are really expensive. It can be an opportunity for you to continue to have coverage at the top of the search engine results pages, be visible for your customers, but not be spending so much money when you're being asked to cut.

George: I love it so much. I get to cheat because I get to see the four things that we're going to talk about, and I love this last one. I can't wait to ask you which your favorite child is here in a hot minute. That's going to be a question. I know that's always a fun question. People are like, "I don't have a favorite." You're going to have to pick a favorite.

But I love this next strategy that we're going to talk about because I've seen so many marketers that will create content, put it out into the world, and then it's over, that's it. They don't come back and optimize it, all sorts of things. Talk to the Marketing Smarts audience about strategy number four.

Lindsay: A great way that you can maximize your budget is you probably already have a lot of great content out there that you've created. There's probably all this content that's sitting right at the top of page two. We know no one goes to the second page of Google or scrolls very far in the infinite scroll.

George: There's a second page?

Lindsay: Exactly. You have an opportunity to look at all the content you have on your site and find where the low hanging fruit is. What content can I go back and optimize that might be right there, right in the top 10, make some quick optimizations, probably not a huge lift? You can really start driving traffic that way. That's a lot of low hanging fruit. We often see people forget that. You think new content, and you forget about this great piece that you spent all these weeks writing two years ago.

Unlike paid where it's money in, money out, once you stop putting money into paid, it stops, but a piece of content can really generate ROI and revenue long into the future. So, going back to that great piece of content that you spent all that time creating a year a half ago that's still relevant, with some light optimizations you can start seeing an impact quickly. That's some low hanging fruit where folks can get some quick wins, especially when budgets are tighter.

George: Yes. Absolutely. The moment is at hand. There's the four strategies that we gave them for this episode. We've got a lot of other questions, we have some more knowledge bombs that we're going to drop, but I have to ask. Out of those strategies that you listed, what do you think the most important one (aka your favorite child) is for marketers to pay attention to?

Lindsay: I think right now it's all about the customer and making sure you're listening to them and then creating content that solves their problems and their needs.

At the end of the day, if you're thinking about Google, and it's probably driving most of your website traffic, typically organic traffic drives about 40%, maybe up to 50% for B2B companies, it's probably driving most of your traffic. With that, you want to make sure that you're ranking on page one for those important queries. That's not about gaming Google. That's about creating really good rich content that your customers are going to consume, that they're getting value. Ultimately, that's how you're going to win.

You said this earlier, content is the fuel. Making sure that you're creating great content and listening to the customer voice is so critical.

George: I know there's probably some people listening who are like, "That's a lot of work. What's the easy button?" Marketing Smarts listeners, before I get any hate mail or any hate tweets, I know nothing we do is easy as marketers. It's all strategy, testing, and it takes brain power. With that said, out of the strategies you listed, what would you say may be the easiest for most marketers to dip their toe in, implement, and go run type scenario?

Lindsay: At Conductor, we have a really simple framework because we know this stuff can be overwhelming. There's a lot that can go into a really strong SEO and content program. Like you said, as marketers, we know nothing is easy. Having a framework and a place to start makes it feel a little less overwhelming. At Conductor, we use the framework PIE; protect, improve, and expand.

First and foremost, we say you need to protect the traffic you have. All of your listeners probably have a great site, and it's probably getting some organic traffic today, so we want to protect that traffic. You have to have a technically sound site to do that. What do I mean by that? You can't have a site that's really slow or has all these redirect issues and 404s. When your customers get to your site, you need to have a really good experience and a healthy site that is technically sound. If it's not technically sound, Google will penalize you and you will never get to the top of the search engine result page. First, we always say protect your traffic by having a technically sound site.

We actually acquired a company last year called Content King, and they have a great tool, you can sign up for a free trial, and it monitors your site 24/7. If you are looking for something, that's a great place to start and it can definitely give you some insight into maybe what's broken on your site, because that's where you want to start.

Second is improve. We talked about this a little bit earlier. The I in PIE, improve, is all about looking at the content that maybe is ranking on page two, really close to that page one, and making some quick optimization wins there. Just by doing those two things, P and I, you're going to start to see a big impact on your site and your traffic overall, and quality traffic as well.

E is once you have a technically sound site, you're improving upon the pages that you already have, then you can start creating the new content. That's the content for those high priority keywords or search term queries that are really going to help your customer. That's the E, expanding into new content.

George: So good. I'll just throw this out there, I love PIE. I'm just going to say that. I really like real pie, but I love that PIE, just to be able to break it down into those three pieces. Part of me wants to circle back to the strategies and ask you how does one get started with customer-first marketing, but I think we talked about the Nate Brown episode, the voice of customer, and that might be a good start.

Since you're from Conductor, since search is a major thing, I think I want to jump to the next question in my brain, which is getting started around identifying. For a lot of people, I think this is a very difficult thing, identifying new opportunities through that search data that you talked about. How do you sift through all of the noise to find the nuggets that you actually need to be chasing?

Lindsay: That comes down to using technology like Conductor. We have a keyword research tool called Explorer within our platform. There are other ones out there as well that you can use to get started. Those types of tools are really going to help you understand what your customers are searching, what type of language they're using, and what type of terms you should be creating content around.

For instance, back to our insurance example from earlier. They were using the term cyber risk, which they realized no one was searching for, and they realized that using a keyword research tool. What you can do is by using some technology, you can go in and put in the keywords that you think your customers are using based on the profiles. What you're going to understand really quickly is what is the search demand of that, what are competitors ranking for, how difficult it may be to rank for this. You might say, "I'm just getting started. I can't go after really competitive keywords," and you might want to invest in more of a long tail keyword strategy.

You can start to make all those decisions once you have the data around what the keywords and topics are that your audiences are searching for.

George: So good. I love all of the information that we're dropping here. I want to tie back to one of the other strategies that you brought up, aligning paid and organic. I didn't say anything when you first dropped that strategy, but I was like two silos, the left doesn't know what the right is doing, the right doesn't know what the left is doing. So, I really want to ask the question.

If I'm a B2B marketer listening to this podcast, and I want to try to align paid and organic teams to maximize the spend and the content creation, how do I get started, what do I need to think about? That's maybe an entire podcast on its own, just that one question, but what are your thoughts around it?

Lindsay: I don't know if I have the silver bullet here today, but I can give some quick tips. First and foremost is you need leadership's buy-in for both teams. You're never going to be successful if you're the SEO team and you're knocking on the paid team's door and the leader is saying, "No, keep them out in the cold, keep ignoring them." You need everyone to be bought in and supportive of the collaboration.

How do you do that, how do you get those leaders and then those front-line folks bought in? It's really about showing the value and demonstrating the value of the synergy. That's pretty easy to put together. You can show some examples like, "Imagine if we could pull back spend on this keyword that we're spending a ton for because we were ranking organic. What else could you do with that money? You could do all this other stuff." Putting together sort of a business case light about the opportunity for collaboration. It's a great place to start. Especially when the other team really speaks in data and numbers, they'll probably respond to that.

Again, that goes back to the very beginning of our conversation here today. You have to have the telemetry and the reporting to be able to demonstrate that impact. That goes for any channel or any business case that you're putting together.

George: I love that it starts at the top and you have to get that buy-in. That is so true to so many things that you're trying to eradicate when it comes to silos in your business. I alluded that my favorite child is the idea of optimizing historical content and creating optimized content, so I do want you to take a little bit of time before we wind down with the last couple of questions of this episode, and I want you to speak to the B2B marketers around how they can get started or what they should be thinking about.

We have to understand there could be people listening to this podcast who have five pages, 50 pages, or 50,000 pages, that when we say optimize they're like, "That's easy," or, "Oh my god." One of those are the things they're going with. Just give us a little bit out of your brain of how in the world do we get started or what should we think about on optimizing new and existing content for search engine optimization (SEO)?

Lindsay: First, I would just say SEO is a huge opportunity area. If you are a listener and you're feeling a little intimidated by it, or you're just sort of dipping your toe in, and you might feel behind like your competitors have been doing this for a while, there's no bad time to get started. The sooner you get started, the higher impact you can have on the business. SEO is by far one of the most impactful channels in terms of generating traffic and then, ultimately, it's one of the highest converting channels as well.

If you're thinking about where to start, I would remind folks about the PIE framework we talked about earlier; protect, improve, and expand. You want to make sure that you are protecting your site, creating that technical foundation, improving the content that you already have, and then expanding. If you don't even know and you're like, "I still have 50,000 pages. Where do I start?" That's where a technology like Content King or others out there that are site auditors can help you identify what's most broken on the site and what's having the biggest negative impact on traffic, and then where are those big opportunity areas that with a little bit of effort I can make a big impact.

I think the thing is don't worry, there's a lot of technology out there that can help you with this. You're not going to have to do it on your own. I'm definitely a resource for folks. If you do have any questions about this, feel free to reach out. I know there's a lot. When it comes to SEO, it can feel like a black box. But we've worked with thousands of customers, so I'm always happy to help if you're feeling like you don't even know where to start.

George: Listening to you on that segment, I love that you're like ding, ding, ding, the word audit. Are you auditing your content? Do you know where the trainwrecks are? Do you know where you should be adding fuel to the fire so that it's burning bright and bringing people in the right direction? So good.

I know you've had your journey, I've had my journey, all the listeners are about to have their journey on things that we talked about today if they choose to implement them in their business and their B2B marketing strategy. We've all had hurdles, we've all hit those potholes of life. I like to try to help people navigate those.

What are some hurdles that you've seen people face around this SEO or content journey that they might be going on that you're like watch out for these one or two things and don't fall into that big pothole or be able to easily jump that big hurdle?

Lindsay: I think one of the big things that we as marketers across channels struggle with is the balance between short term and long term. Where we need more leads, we need them quickly, we don't have enough for the Q2 pipeline, so you're always sort of in that mode, but it can also compromise our investments in the long term. You have to be able to balance both.

I think the biggest shortcoming that folks run into is that they oftentimes lose that long-term vision, or they invest in something for the long term, don't see immediate results, and then pivot away from it and just go back to what they know, whether that be throwing more money at media because they know they'll get those immediate leads.

We often say at Conductor that you really want to plant a tree, plant a seed, and you have to plant the seed for the future. If you plant that seed today, it will grow. If you're not watering it and nurturing it over time, you're never going to have a tree. So, I would urge folks to make sure that you're balancing that short and long term and planting those trees for the future today.

George: Ladies and gentlemen, if you don't plant, you can't harvest. That's what I'm going to say. That is such a truth of life and marketing and business. Just drop the mic. That's a drop the mic bomb right there.

Lindsay, I don't know if you would even have an answer to this one. I surely know that if somebody asked me this question, I wouldn't, or maybe I'd actually come up with something. We've alluded to that there might be, or for some people it might happen, for others it might not, the dirty R word, recession. How do you know, though, how do you know it's time to pivot from your regular strategy, your day in, day out, this is what we do and it always works, to what might be your recession marketing strategy and tactics?

Lindsay: I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's going to go back to the customer. You have to be attuned to what your audience is going through and adapt to what you're seeing in the market. I think this goes with all marketing needs to be driven from the customer. If you're not listening to the customer, you are probably going to miss not only some opportunities, but you might get into trouble if you're continuing to market the same way you were marketing 12 months ago when it was really different and they were in a really different position.

I don't think any of us really know exactly when to pivot. There's no sort of trigger that comes or an email that gets pushed up that says it's time to launch your recession marketing. I think by having a close ear to the customer, you'll be able to sense and know when you may need to pivot to better meet their needs.

George: So good. It's not like you wake up one day and the grass is purple and you're like, "Oh, it's recession marketing day." It doesn't happen that way. You have to use your ear and you have to use your gut, and then move in the right direction.

Speaking of your gut, one of the things that I love to end these podcast episodes on, and by the way, Lindsay, you are one smart cookie, and this has been an absolutely fabulous interview. I've enjoyed every moment of it. You obviously know your stuff, so you have some wisdom that you've build up over time. What are some words of wisdom that you would want to leave the Marketing Smarts audience with as we send them back to their regularly scheduled day?

Lindsay: I think it goes back to our tree analogy from earlier. At Conductor, we always say the best time to plant a tree was yesterday, but the second best time is today. A downturn can be an opportunity. Consider it the right time to start growing those roots that will help your company weather the current storm, but also future storms. By planting those roots today, you have an opportunity to come out of whatever storm we're in stronger than before.

I would urge everyone not to be scared, but embrace this as an opportunity as marketers to maybe think about things differently. Double-down, like we said, focus on the things that are working and then try new things where and when it allows.

George: Marketing Smarts listeners, did you take lots of notes? I have to ask, what is your one thing, your number one execution opportunity after this podcast episode? Make sure you reach out and let us know in my inbox or on Twitter using the hashtag #MPB2B.

I also have to ask are you a free member of the MarketingProfs community yet? If not, head over to Mprofs.com/mptoday. You won't regret the additional B2B marketing education that you'll be adding to your life.

We'd like it if you could leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app, but we'd love it if you would share this episode with a coworker or friend. Until we meet in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast where we talk with Christine Gritmon about why B2B marketers and executives need personal branding in 2023 and beyond, I hope you do just a couple of things. One, reach out and let us know what conversation you'd like to listen in on next. Two, focus on getting 1% better at your craft each and every day. Finally, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble B2B marketing human. We'll see you in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast.

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Published on February 2, 2023